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标题: 看看美国人是怎样教咱写诗的。 [打印本页]

作者: 小忍 时间: 2009-3-21 11:25 标题: 看看美国人是怎样教咱写诗的。

At a party (4rd Version)

« on: November 01, 2008, 12:34:40 pm »

A guest with a chiseled nose
and an obvious concern
asked me whether
binding feet was really
an ancient tradition
of beautification
Yes, I replied
but as progress made
from one end to the other
It becomes a legacy

***********************************************

A guest with a chiseled nose
and an obvious concern
asked me whether
binding feet was really
an ancient tradition
of beautification
Yes, I replied
but it has been a long time
progress has been made
from one end to the other

***********************************************

A guest with a chiseled nose
asked me
Was it really an ancient tradition
For women to
Bind their feet?
No, I replied
It has been upgraded
To the higher end.

***********************************************

A guest with a chiseled nose
asks me
Is it really an ancient tradition
For women to
Bind their feet?
No, I replied
It has been upgraded
To the higher end.

(Written after watching an episode of Tick/ Tuck. )

***********************************************

Hello Rev,

I almost read a touch of rye wit in this piece. A few tense observations if you don't mind. In L2 asks is present tense, yet in L6 replied is past tense. They don't quite mix so I'd suggest you choose present or past tense for the entire piece. Did you intend the statement by the guest to appear in quotes? If not, this could be written asked me if it was an ancient tradition rather than "Is it really an ancient tradition", since ancient tradition signifies the past, and the practice has ended. Correctly if this is a quote it should be written "Was it really an ancient tradition" ...

I believe foot binding was a Chinese tradition that was practiced until it was banned in 1911 by the new Republic of China. Wouldn't the more appropriate answer be "Yes," I replied,, then perhaps something like, "but it seems to have moved beyond the/our borders and up in the world a bit." This would indicate the suggestion that the nose of the guest has received new architecture, if I read this poem correctly. I love the use of the word chiseled.

O.P.W.

**********************************************

Thanks, Fredericks for your reading and critique. Good understanding.

I played with my reply, which is intended for the "ancient" , not anything else.

On the other hand, I took "women" of the world as a whole, not this country or another country.

Is this a valid explanation?

**********************************************

Reverie, I like the conceit, but would agree with OPW, and my answer to your question would be "no". The answer to the guest's question would actually be 'yes': it WAS an ancient tradition, but isn't anymore. It could be reworded, such as "Is it really a tradition for women to bind their feet?" which brings it to the present. I think people are aware enough of the ancient Chinese practice to get the reference. Then, N can answer "no", with the witty rejoinder. Maybe I'm just a little dense, but I would also make the final line a little clearer. "the higher end" leaves a lot of room for interpretation and potential confusion. We may not all get the connection to the first line right away. Tie it (no pun intended) to the face somehow, to the nose or Botox or plastic surgery or whatever you desire. Just thoughts.

~luke

***********************************************

Hi luke,

Thank you very much for your thoughts. I have been thinking, and finally made a new version tonight. Thank you again for your help.

***********************************************

Rev,

I could really see the bemused expression as the narrator answered the chiseled nose inquirer about beautification. Reading from bottom to top, it was interesting to see how you developed the poem yet still kept the humor very much a part of each revision.

Great work.

Ed

***********************************************
Thank you Ed.

I'm still trying, and very hard.

作者: zhaoyang 时间: 2009-3-21 12:41
小忍：是不是你写洋诗，就有点洋人的毛病：以英文为中心了？这第一首诗，除了最后没头没脑的一句，也就是梨花体，口语诗，没什么稀罕的。最后一句有点门道。

中文和英文诗歌，感觉是不一样的。能写好英文诗的人，未必能写好中文诗歌，反之亦然。总体而言，我自己喜欢中文诗歌：很直接，很厚实。英文的，隔一点，没法跟洋人一样，言到意通

作者: 小忍 时间: 2009-3-21 13:05

引用:

Originally posted by zhaoyang at 2009-3-21 12:41 PM:
小忍：是不是你写洋诗，就有点洋人的毛病：以英文为中心了？这第一首诗，除了最后没头没脑的一句，也就是梨花体，口语诗，没什么稀罕的。最后一句有点门道。

中文和英文诗歌，感觉是不一样的。能写好英文诗的人..

兆阳，难道你没从那几行里读出幽默吗？

PARTY 上那个洋（女〕人笑话中国人裹脚的事，可她自己的鼻子是做了手术的 (俺说 “chiseled"〕。俺整个那篇小说就是从这首诗里构思出去的。

你来看看下面登在 NEW YOKER 上的诗，告诉我是不是莉花体。

Fame

　　　　　　by Les Murray

　　We were at dinner in SoHo
　　and the couple at the next table
　　rose to go. The woman paused to say
　　to me, I just wanted you to know
　　I have got all your cookbooks
　　and I swear by them!

　　 I managed
　　to answer her, Ma'am,
　　they've done you nothing but good!
　　which was perhaps immodest
　　of whoever I am.

作者: zhaoyang 时间: 2009-3-21 13:31
小忍：读了。第一段无非也是讽刺，出菜谱书得大名声（因公众能认识她/他）的人，去餐馆吃饭，遇见一个自己菜谱书的读者，作者著而不行，读者读而不行：空对空。第二段，作者失落感强烈，也心虚，却用辩解似的强烈语气说这些书对这名读者有好处。让作者失落、心虚的可能原因，应该是自己的菜谱是减肥、健康菜谱（nothing but good!)，而这位太太可能体重比较突出。

还不错。但没有中文诗歌的味道。

作者: zhaoyang 时间: 2009-3-21 13:42
小忍啊：劝你好好读读李四的诗论。我原以为这类让自己觉得与众不同（从这个角度讲，有心灵性的装饰、麻醉品效果，也是布尔乔亚式特质）的文字只有在中文诗界才有，原来洋人也差不多，可能洋诗是此类中文诗歌的滥觞。

作者: 小忍 时间: 2009-3-21 13:50

引用:

Originally posted by zhaoyang at 2009-3-21 01:31 PM:
小忍：读了。第一段无非也是讽刺，出菜谱书得大名声（因公众能认识她/他）的人，去餐馆吃饭，遇见一个自己菜谱书的读者，作者著而不行，读者读而不行：空对空。第二段，作者失落感强烈，也心虚，却用辩解似的强烈..

兆阳，

1，一个非中国人的诗，为什么要中国诗歌的味道呢？

2，俺和你的读后感不同。你得想想这样一首如果按你理解的那个意思，能不能上 NEW YORKER？我想是不是这样的：SOHO那个地方不怎么好，菜也不怎么好。一个比较成功女士的男友请她吃了饭，她不是太满意，又不好直说。就疯疯颠颠地硬说读了作家的COOKBOOKS。那意思是不是让她的男朋友听听，这饭没有一点水平，还不如我自己做得好（对诗人提提诗可以，为什么是COOKBOOKS呢？）！诗作者也不好意思（which was perhaps immodest of whoever I am. ）。因为他逢场作戏，又不太谦虚地承认了他COOKBOOKS写得很好。

3, 这首诗就是写得普通，写得妙。要不然诗和回车多多的长句子有什么区别? 这里的诗人里，我只从非马的那篇写雨伞下爱情的诗里读到”妙“ （筒子们请原谅我这么说，因为这里的诗，我读得很少〕。

作者: 小忍 时间: 2009-3-21 13:55

引用:

兆阳啊，诗就得要巧，要妙！

你老人家的诗里就缺少这些东西。

作者: zhaoyang 时间: 2009-3-21 14:42
小忍啊：你读我读，都是诗外的，Soho如何，远在旧金山的人怎么知道，啊？远在中国的人又如何知道？说不定哪一天Soho变好了，这首诗歌何以立意立境啊？何况十年后的读者？百年后的读者？那时Soho什么的，早就归尘土了。如果地域性、时域性那么重要，这首诗歌就没什么意思了。上不上New Yorker，有那么重要么？再放大一百倍，得不得诺贝尔奖，有那么重要么？你啊--沾上洋人的毛病了，也沾上纽约人的毛病了。要不得

我楼上那个帖子，你“老人家”还是要好好消化啊。忠言啊 -- 你我诗歌缘分，忠言为止。李四的诗歌，从不求妙，何况是布尔乔亚式的妙呢？巧妙是很容易做到的，难的是真诚啊。俳歌的巧，李四喜欢，布尔乔亚式的巧，李四避之惟恐不及啊

作者: fanghuzhai 时间: 2009-3-21 15:00
咱不懂英语诗歌，分析一下音节强弱也看不出什么乐感。传统的英诗节律还很明显，现在的真是跟分行散文差不多。

　　We were at dinner in SoHo
--o-oo-o　　

and the couple at the next table
oo-ooo--o

　　rose to go. The woman paused to say

-o-. o-o-o-

　　to me, I just wanted you to know

o-, ---o-o-

　　I have got all your cookbooks
　　
------o
and I swear by them!

o--o-

我写就这样写：

We were at dinner in SoHo
A couple was rising to go
The woman turned to me to say
Sir, I just want you to know
I've got all your cookbooks
And the prices were low
Because they are from yardsales
And I never use them though.

作者: 海外逸士 时间: 2009-3-21 15:06
現在的英文詩及中文新詩﹐都只能象看故事一樣看它們的內容﹐或者說得很妙。至于
句行都同樣地不象詩了。沒有詩的節奏﹐沒有詩的意境。都是分行的散文。

作者: 小忍 时间: 2009-3-21 16:28

引用:

Originally posted by fanghuzhai at 2009-3-21 03:00 PM:
咱不懂英语诗歌，分析一下音节强弱也看不出什么乐感。传统的英诗节律还很明显，现在的真是跟分行散文差不多。

　　We were at dinner in SoHo
--o-oo-o　　

and the couple at the next table
oo-ooo--o
..

您当然怎么写都行，是自由。

不过你注意到了吗，他的第二段第一行，往后顿了几个空格，表示他的犹豫，不知该怎样回答。他没写什么COOKBOOKS，他不想撒谎。可是为了那位热情的女士（没准她还给诗人使了几个眼色），我想更大的可能是他不想冷场（美国的文化，在公众场合，要维持面子，特别是女士的面子），他说了他并不感到骄傲的话。

作者: 小忍 时间: 2009-3-22 21:42
Ding!

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